Mr.Z
12-09 01:43 PM
Hi friends,
I need your help!!!
I'm here at California with L-2 visa. I can stay legally in US but i can not get a SSN number, i can work too.But For a driver license they ask for SSN. Do i still get the Driver License or no?
Thank you very much...
I need your help!!!
I'm here at California with L-2 visa. I can stay legally in US but i can not get a SSN number, i can work too.But For a driver license they ask for SSN. Do i still get the Driver License or no?
Thank you very much...
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abhijitp
07-18 12:37 AM
Continuing on this forum with more generic title
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10383
Per Greg Siskind -- July 2nd filers might have to file again, as all July 2nd application were rejected. Check out the link below as well as the comment section for the blog
Greg Siskind is reporting the following about July2nd rejection here
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2007/07/faqs-part-1.html
part of above post --
USCIS did not state how cases filed and rejected on the 2nd are to be handled other than to say that properly filed applications would be accepted. This presumably covers the many cases filed after the second that were held, but it doesn�t explain what will happen to the cases received earlier. We hope USCIS will issue special instructions to issue July 2nd receipt dates to those who are able to document they attempted to file. We presume some folks are still waiting on their July 2nd cases to be returned and are debating refiling new cases rather than waiting. Unfortunately, there is a risk of not getting the package back before August 17th and some people will need to refile without proof of the earlier filing. Hopefully, again, USCIS will institute a process for such individuals to avoid being penalized.
USCIS has not announced any details yet on how it will determine which cases get 2007 visa numbers that might still be available. We also don�t know yet how cases will be processed that are not in the batch of cases that get green card numbers this year. For those who will have to get numbers in future years, applications should be worked by the order of the priority date. So applicants with labor certifications approved some time back, for example, should go before people in the same category with later priority dates.
For individuals filing cases not requiring a labor certification (such as Schedule A cases and national interest waivers), the priority date is the date of filing. Because there may be hundreds of thousands of applications received between July 2nd and August 17th with many of these cases not requiring a labor certification, the date during this six week period a case is filed could make a big difference in terms of when a case will complete processing. And, again, getting that July 2nd priority date for those who filed early and were rejected could make a big difference in when their cases are ultimately processed through to completion.
This would be interesting as well as cause for concern for many of us. Do we have to go through the whole process one more time and file again?
http://immigrationvoice.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10383
Per Greg Siskind -- July 2nd filers might have to file again, as all July 2nd application were rejected. Check out the link below as well as the comment section for the blog
Greg Siskind is reporting the following about July2nd rejection here
http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2007/07/faqs-part-1.html
part of above post --
USCIS did not state how cases filed and rejected on the 2nd are to be handled other than to say that properly filed applications would be accepted. This presumably covers the many cases filed after the second that were held, but it doesn�t explain what will happen to the cases received earlier. We hope USCIS will issue special instructions to issue July 2nd receipt dates to those who are able to document they attempted to file. We presume some folks are still waiting on their July 2nd cases to be returned and are debating refiling new cases rather than waiting. Unfortunately, there is a risk of not getting the package back before August 17th and some people will need to refile without proof of the earlier filing. Hopefully, again, USCIS will institute a process for such individuals to avoid being penalized.
USCIS has not announced any details yet on how it will determine which cases get 2007 visa numbers that might still be available. We also don�t know yet how cases will be processed that are not in the batch of cases that get green card numbers this year. For those who will have to get numbers in future years, applications should be worked by the order of the priority date. So applicants with labor certifications approved some time back, for example, should go before people in the same category with later priority dates.
For individuals filing cases not requiring a labor certification (such as Schedule A cases and national interest waivers), the priority date is the date of filing. Because there may be hundreds of thousands of applications received between July 2nd and August 17th with many of these cases not requiring a labor certification, the date during this six week period a case is filed could make a big difference in terms of when a case will complete processing. And, again, getting that July 2nd priority date for those who filed early and were rejected could make a big difference in when their cases are ultimately processed through to completion.
This would be interesting as well as cause for concern for many of us. Do we have to go through the whole process one more time and file again?
anilsal
12-12 01:17 PM
If the attorneys have determined that there needs to be a INA change to allow I-485 filing during retrogression, has anybody bothered to find out what USCIS interpretation is?
USCIS interpretation can be binding!
USCIS interpretation can be binding!
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PHANI_TAVVALA
05-15 10:30 AM
actually online MBA costs 2 times more than regular MBA in most cases..they dont have concept of instate/out-of-state tuition for online.yeah its online but still people can be within the state paying state taxes or whatever..
they should consider this, I say :cool:
That's bull. Online at top-rated university costs as much as full-time but definitely not more. Most of the top-notch universities don't even differentiate in-state and out-of-state. M.B.A is a money printing machine for them. Assistantships, in full-time schools, are very few and scarce and competition for them is pretty high. I have friends going to Darden School of Business as full-time students and they are paying close to $70k in fee alone. Add to this the cost of living, books etc. Times are pretty bad now and few of them couldnot even get internships for this summer and few who got had had their offers rescinded. For full-time school you have to consider something called "Opportunity Cost". There was a article in Businessweek which mentioned that a Harvard full-time M.B.A will take 15 years to break-even on his M.B.A investment. The reason for this is that he will be spending $80k on fee alone, another $20-30k for living expenses for 2 years, another 10-20k in books and other expenses. At the same time he would have lost on a average $160-200k in 2 year salary and benefits. Combines together it adds upto $300k which can be invested at average 6% interest, if you are a savvy investor, and get good returns. Assuming a Harvard M.B.A graduate on a average make $120k out-of-school if would take 15 years for him to break-even even with all the increments and bonuses.
they should consider this, I say :cool:
That's bull. Online at top-rated university costs as much as full-time but definitely not more. Most of the top-notch universities don't even differentiate in-state and out-of-state. M.B.A is a money printing machine for them. Assistantships, in full-time schools, are very few and scarce and competition for them is pretty high. I have friends going to Darden School of Business as full-time students and they are paying close to $70k in fee alone. Add to this the cost of living, books etc. Times are pretty bad now and few of them couldnot even get internships for this summer and few who got had had their offers rescinded. For full-time school you have to consider something called "Opportunity Cost". There was a article in Businessweek which mentioned that a Harvard full-time M.B.A will take 15 years to break-even on his M.B.A investment. The reason for this is that he will be spending $80k on fee alone, another $20-30k for living expenses for 2 years, another 10-20k in books and other expenses. At the same time he would have lost on a average $160-200k in 2 year salary and benefits. Combines together it adds upto $300k which can be invested at average 6% interest, if you are a savvy investor, and get good returns. Assuming a Harvard M.B.A graduate on a average make $120k out-of-school if would take 15 years for him to break-even even with all the increments and bonuses.
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ksvreg
06-10 01:45 PM
best bet is eb3 to eb2 conversion in addition to advocacy efforts?
vik352
07-01 04:35 PM
We already participated in the phone campaign. What else we can do in helping the Lofgren bills?
With an online petition and > 1000 signatures, we can mail the copies to media/congressman/President.
With an online petition and > 1000 signatures, we can mail the copies to media/congressman/President.
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pyaradesi
02-03 09:28 PM
Folks,
I am not a naysayer, I think the IV core team has done a great job of giving a voice to us.
But, there are a few questions that I am not convinced myself:
1. why remove per country quota just for EB, why not family based immigration as well?
2. what will happen after removing per country limits, what kind of numbers are we looking at? how many new PRs? What is the impact on the country,economic, social, cultural, I do care about the USA.
3. By asking legislators to remove these per country quota limits, isn't this a paradigm shift in thinking?
When I, a guy impacted by this EB backlog am not convinced, how the heck are we going to make a case to some congressman/woman? We should definitely move away from this snobbish view that EB folks are better than others, or that the USA needs the EB folks more than EB folks need the USA.
That said, I do believe that we have a humanitarian case for folks like us who are already in the queue. Educating congress about the path taken by the average EB immigrant would help. At the end of the day human life is human life even it is it Indian.
I am not a naysayer, I think the IV core team has done a great job of giving a voice to us.
But, there are a few questions that I am not convinced myself:
1. why remove per country quota just for EB, why not family based immigration as well?
2. what will happen after removing per country limits, what kind of numbers are we looking at? how many new PRs? What is the impact on the country,economic, social, cultural, I do care about the USA.
3. By asking legislators to remove these per country quota limits, isn't this a paradigm shift in thinking?
When I, a guy impacted by this EB backlog am not convinced, how the heck are we going to make a case to some congressman/woman? We should definitely move away from this snobbish view that EB folks are better than others, or that the USA needs the EB folks more than EB folks need the USA.
That said, I do believe that we have a humanitarian case for folks like us who are already in the queue. Educating congress about the path taken by the average EB immigrant would help. At the end of the day human life is human life even it is it Indian.
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nixstor
07-05 11:19 AM
Yes, there are other ways that in an emergency you can keep in touch with IV. Total waste of valuable money, for the couple of occasions it has happened
I dont really care about the website outages. Thats not the main issue. Two or three core/senior volunteers are always running a contribution drive. Imagine thse people doing some thing more productive than running funding/media drives. When shyt hits the roof, we have a boat load of people asking when the hell shyt is gonna be all over us or how to wipe off the shyt. IV's strength lies in its members and all the time IV members have not responded to enroll in a monthly payment. People want GC's, but they dont want to pay for the fight. People want GC's but they want accountability for 20USD. People have point specific issues about themselves and their imigration issues and are happy to leverage the knowledge of the IV community, but do not care a damn about IV community. Those who pay, pay twice, pay thrice and even more. Why should any one do it? Why should others just simply browse and get answers for persoanl point specific issues? Those who do not know the value of green and what it can do in America, should stop worrying about GC. We have become a laughing stock for people on anti forums like alipac who have arrived at the conclusion that they dont need to fight us because we fight among us big time. Enough of my rant.
I dont really care about the website outages. Thats not the main issue. Two or three core/senior volunteers are always running a contribution drive. Imagine thse people doing some thing more productive than running funding/media drives. When shyt hits the roof, we have a boat load of people asking when the hell shyt is gonna be all over us or how to wipe off the shyt. IV's strength lies in its members and all the time IV members have not responded to enroll in a monthly payment. People want GC's, but they dont want to pay for the fight. People want GC's but they want accountability for 20USD. People have point specific issues about themselves and their imigration issues and are happy to leverage the knowledge of the IV community, but do not care a damn about IV community. Those who pay, pay twice, pay thrice and even more. Why should any one do it? Why should others just simply browse and get answers for persoanl point specific issues? Those who do not know the value of green and what it can do in America, should stop worrying about GC. We have become a laughing stock for people on anti forums like alipac who have arrived at the conclusion that they dont need to fight us because we fight among us big time. Enough of my rant.
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acecupid
07-03 12:36 PM
Would you agree that wives and kids should not be included in the EB GC quota?
If you read my earlier response, you would not be asking me this question. Just to repeat myself, I completely agree with you that wives and kids should not be included to the EB GC quota!
If you read my earlier response, you would not be asking me this question. Just to repeat myself, I completely agree with you that wives and kids should not be included to the EB GC quota!
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saketkapur
11-11 02:12 PM
Compete America Congratulates President-Elect Obama
Last update: 4:31 p.m. EST Nov. 5, 2008
WASHINGTON, Nov 05, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Business and University Leaders Express Optimism that New Administration will Support Much-Needed Reform to Visa Programs for Highly Educated Employees
Compete America today congratulated President-elect Barack Obama for his victory in yesterday's elections. Compete America, a coalition of corporations, educators, research institutions and trade associations advocating for the reform of out-dated visa policies for highly educated foreign professionals, did not, and does not endorse candidates at any level.
"We are optimistic that the President-elect and his team understand the critical importance of highly educated foreign professionals to economic growth and job creation. Investing in innovation is one of the most effective ways we can stimulate our economy," said Robert Hoffman, Vice President for Government and Public Affairs at Oracle and Co-Chair of Compete America. "History has shown that top talent living and working in America is a boon to our economy and a proven job creator for quality American jobs."
Hoffman continued by saying that Compete America was also encouraged that President-elect Obama recognizes the importance of investment in research and supports improving education for science, technology, engineering and math (STEM). Basic research investments and improved STEM education are two critical components of continued U.S. innovation leadership.
Hoffman noted that during the campaign, the Obama-Biden policy paper on Science and Innovation stated the following:
Barack Obama supports comprehensive immigration reform that improves our visa programs to attract some of the world's most talented people to America, including improvements in our legal permanent resident visa programs and temporary programs such as the H-1B program. Obama will:
Reduce the backlog of skilled immigrants waiting to become permanentresidents by increasing the number of employment-based visas.
Create a "fast track" system that allows foreign students thatreceive advanced technical degrees from U.S. universities to receive an employment-based visa without having to return to their home country.
Balance visa and export control policies against the possibility that they deter international scientific exchange or send a message to international students, scholars, scientists, and engineers that theyare not welcome in the United States.
Work to ensure immigrant workers are less dependent on their employers for their right to stay in the country and hold accountable employers who abuse the system and their workers.
For more information on how highly educated immigration benefits America, please visit http://www.competeamerica.org.
Compete America ( http://www.competeamerica.org) is a coalition of corporations, educators, research institutions and trade associations concerned about legal, employment-based immigration and committed to ensuring that the United States has the highly educated workforce necessary to ensure continued innovation, job creation and leadership in a worldwide economy.
Last update: 4:31 p.m. EST Nov. 5, 2008
WASHINGTON, Nov 05, 2008 /PRNewswire-USNewswire via COMTEX/ -- Business and University Leaders Express Optimism that New Administration will Support Much-Needed Reform to Visa Programs for Highly Educated Employees
Compete America today congratulated President-elect Barack Obama for his victory in yesterday's elections. Compete America, a coalition of corporations, educators, research institutions and trade associations advocating for the reform of out-dated visa policies for highly educated foreign professionals, did not, and does not endorse candidates at any level.
"We are optimistic that the President-elect and his team understand the critical importance of highly educated foreign professionals to economic growth and job creation. Investing in innovation is one of the most effective ways we can stimulate our economy," said Robert Hoffman, Vice President for Government and Public Affairs at Oracle and Co-Chair of Compete America. "History has shown that top talent living and working in America is a boon to our economy and a proven job creator for quality American jobs."
Hoffman continued by saying that Compete America was also encouraged that President-elect Obama recognizes the importance of investment in research and supports improving education for science, technology, engineering and math (STEM). Basic research investments and improved STEM education are two critical components of continued U.S. innovation leadership.
Hoffman noted that during the campaign, the Obama-Biden policy paper on Science and Innovation stated the following:
Barack Obama supports comprehensive immigration reform that improves our visa programs to attract some of the world's most talented people to America, including improvements in our legal permanent resident visa programs and temporary programs such as the H-1B program. Obama will:
Reduce the backlog of skilled immigrants waiting to become permanentresidents by increasing the number of employment-based visas.
Create a "fast track" system that allows foreign students thatreceive advanced technical degrees from U.S. universities to receive an employment-based visa without having to return to their home country.
Balance visa and export control policies against the possibility that they deter international scientific exchange or send a message to international students, scholars, scientists, and engineers that theyare not welcome in the United States.
Work to ensure immigrant workers are less dependent on their employers for their right to stay in the country and hold accountable employers who abuse the system and their workers.
For more information on how highly educated immigration benefits America, please visit http://www.competeamerica.org.
Compete America ( http://www.competeamerica.org) is a coalition of corporations, educators, research institutions and trade associations concerned about legal, employment-based immigration and committed to ensuring that the United States has the highly educated workforce necessary to ensure continued innovation, job creation and leadership in a worldwide economy.
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Hassan11
03-19 01:43 PM
pmb76,
that was not my statement. if you read my post, you will understand that I clearly was quoting Ron Gotcher. I even put a link to that message where I got that quote from his forum. so in the future, you can say maybe Ron wasn't right instead.
Your statement about 27% limit holding does not make sense ! As per the visa bulletin if numbers are not filled up in a particular category they will go to unsubscribed countries. Here is the excerpt from the April Visa bulletin:
D. INDIA EMPLOYMENT SECOND PREFERENCE VISA AVAILABILITY
Section 202(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act provides that if total demand will be insufficient to use all available numbers in a particular Employment preference category in a calendar quarter, then the unused numbers may be made available without regard to the annual �per-country� limit. It has been determined that based on the current level of demand being received, primarily by Citizenship and Immigration Services Offices, there would be otherwise unused numbers in the Employment Second preference category. As a result, numbers have once again become available to the India Employment Second preference category. The rate of number use in the Employment Second preference category will continue to be monitored, and it may be necessary to make adjustments should the level of demand increase substantially.
that was not my statement. if you read my post, you will understand that I clearly was quoting Ron Gotcher. I even put a link to that message where I got that quote from his forum. so in the future, you can say maybe Ron wasn't right instead.
Your statement about 27% limit holding does not make sense ! As per the visa bulletin if numbers are not filled up in a particular category they will go to unsubscribed countries. Here is the excerpt from the April Visa bulletin:
D. INDIA EMPLOYMENT SECOND PREFERENCE VISA AVAILABILITY
Section 202(a)(5) of the Immigration and Nationality Act provides that if total demand will be insufficient to use all available numbers in a particular Employment preference category in a calendar quarter, then the unused numbers may be made available without regard to the annual �per-country� limit. It has been determined that based on the current level of demand being received, primarily by Citizenship and Immigration Services Offices, there would be otherwise unused numbers in the Employment Second preference category. As a result, numbers have once again become available to the India Employment Second preference category. The rate of number use in the Employment Second preference category will continue to be monitored, and it may be necessary to make adjustments should the level of demand increase substantially.
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thirdworldman
03-14 05:58 PM
I'd love to do a 3d character battle--it's been a while since I've done any character work--I'm in. Definately a four week deadline, at LEAST.
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Sunx_2004
07-14 06:02 PM
Can new company file amendmend to existing I-140...
The company who filed my greencard got acquired within 6 months of I485 filing for me, They amend my H1 within 6 months window and now they are in process of amending the I140..
My question to gurus is-Will he be ok if his new company amend the I140.
Of course, you know your problems best, but it was obviously irresponsible of you to quit before letting 180 days pass after applying for 485.
Here is the problem. The letter of employment you send to CIS must have a start date which will expose your violation of the 180 day rule. So unless you lie here, you are likely in in trouble. Your best bet is to suck it up and return to your sponsoring employer. That will ensure your case 100%. Any other option is risky.
Go to a knowledged attorney. Khanna, Murthy, Gotcher etc., are the names I know.
The company who filed my greencard got acquired within 6 months of I485 filing for me, They amend my H1 within 6 months window and now they are in process of amending the I140..
My question to gurus is-Will he be ok if his new company amend the I140.
Of course, you know your problems best, but it was obviously irresponsible of you to quit before letting 180 days pass after applying for 485.
Here is the problem. The letter of employment you send to CIS must have a start date which will expose your violation of the 180 day rule. So unless you lie here, you are likely in in trouble. Your best bet is to suck it up and return to your sponsoring employer. That will ensure your case 100%. Any other option is risky.
Go to a knowledged attorney. Khanna, Murthy, Gotcher etc., are the names I know.
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boreal
08-22 01:36 AM
I am not sure why you guys are so harsh when someone is asking for guidance and help. If you have lot of time please go after the antis...there are lot of websites to rant your farustartion. If you can not give any useful information...please refrain from posting. It just gives very bad light.
Advising someone who is clearly illegal and to top it, feels entitled to a Green card, you guys are giving quite a lot of fodder to the same antis...so please stop this as well!
Advising someone who is clearly illegal and to top it, feels entitled to a Green card, you guys are giving quite a lot of fodder to the same antis...so please stop this as well!
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GreenLantern
02-21 05:09 PM
What is all this about LW. Everybody seems to think it's the bomb. Why? Maybe this needs to be it's own thread?
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Macaca
01-30 07:03 PM
Asking employees to pay for H1 costs is not legal. It would be in violations of CFR.
Is this a new rule? I have paid for my H1 with a check to INS (before name changed to USCIS). I think everyone else paid for H1 with pay check to INS. I was also supposed to pay for (non-company) lawyer fees for GC.
Is this a new rule? I have paid for my H1 with a check to INS (before name changed to USCIS). I think everyone else paid for H1 with pay check to INS. I was also supposed to pay for (non-company) lawyer fees for GC.
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americandesi
12-24 01:46 PM
Another link was provided in this link where a person listed an employer on his g-325a but he was on bench and never got paid. USCIS was trying to deny his 485 due to fraud. Fraud overrules 24k any time.
Therefore; uscis uses many different avenues to get at other aspects; especially to get you to lie, cover up, mislead in things you don't need to but inadvertently do because you think it is problematic when it really wasn't.
You're right. Here's an example on how "Out of Status" can come back and haunt you for fraud
http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=9324055071&m=2331096351
Therefore; uscis uses many different avenues to get at other aspects; especially to get you to lie, cover up, mislead in things you don't need to but inadvertently do because you think it is problematic when it really wasn't.
You're right. Here's an example on how "Out of Status" can come back and haunt you for fraud
http://murthyforum.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1024039761&f=9324055071&m=2331096351
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pappu
02-11 08:44 PM
141,020 visa numbers used in FY2009
http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY09AnnualReport_TableV.pdf
Look at the last page.
The worldwide level for annual employment-based preference immigrants is 140,000. So the usage was actually more.
__________________
Not a legal advice.
Good to see your post. :) Your posts are very helpful and educational to IV members Thank you.
If someone thinks visas are being wasted please send us the proof and IV will take action.
http://www.travel.state.gov/pdf/FY09AnnualReport_TableV.pdf
Look at the last page.
The worldwide level for annual employment-based preference immigrants is 140,000. So the usage was actually more.
__________________
Not a legal advice.
Good to see your post. :) Your posts are very helpful and educational to IV members Thank you.
If someone thinks visas are being wasted please send us the proof and IV will take action.
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bharad
02-04 02:38 PM
have sent you a p.m.
dressking
09-28 05:13 PM
What irked me is the attitude that they will take your money gladly but don't want you there.
I have met a British guy here in New York who was like that. He loved the money, and always smiled to me for the money. But he never even want to lift a finger for the money he has been paid to do. And he despised me and was ashamed of having to talk to me because he was surrounded by some Southerners who were equally racist.
In fact, he even scammed me for money. And he was a businessman and now a CEO of a corporation.
I have met a British guy here in New York who was like that. He loved the money, and always smiled to me for the money. But he never even want to lift a finger for the money he has been paid to do. And he despised me and was ashamed of having to talk to me because he was surrounded by some Southerners who were equally racist.
In fact, he even scammed me for money. And he was a businessman and now a CEO of a corporation.
rajkr
06-10 07:49 PM
First of all there is no mention of EADs in the Bill. So I do not understand why Pappu is highlighting this issue so much.
Grassley continues his war on H1B visas. When I see this Forum, I see a high degree of panic among the members here. Please UNDERSTAND VERY CLEARLY that this is only a proposal, not a law. To become a law it has to go through both the house and the senate.
Grassley and Saunders have both tried to do everything possible to eliminate the H1B program over the years. They haven't had much success. I don't see them having any success with this bill either. There are very powerful interests that will step up to oppose this legislation when and IF it is ever considered. Personally, I just don't see it ever getting serious consideration.
Saunders, while listed as an "independent", was nominated and elected as a Socialist. He simply doesn't like business.
Please also understand that when you say that if this Bill is passed then H1b, L1, EAD can not be renewed. Many seems to forget that GC is also subject to renewal process. So why do not you include GC also in the list. Please do not waste your times on ifs and buts type of things. Focus on what is happening and what is realistic. Support CIR and how it can be approved, but do not run after something that can never ever happen.
Grassley continues his war on H1B visas. When I see this Forum, I see a high degree of panic among the members here. Please UNDERSTAND VERY CLEARLY that this is only a proposal, not a law. To become a law it has to go through both the house and the senate.
Grassley and Saunders have both tried to do everything possible to eliminate the H1B program over the years. They haven't had much success. I don't see them having any success with this bill either. There are very powerful interests that will step up to oppose this legislation when and IF it is ever considered. Personally, I just don't see it ever getting serious consideration.
Saunders, while listed as an "independent", was nominated and elected as a Socialist. He simply doesn't like business.
Please also understand that when you say that if this Bill is passed then H1b, L1, EAD can not be renewed. Many seems to forget that GC is also subject to renewal process. So why do not you include GC also in the list. Please do not waste your times on ifs and buts type of things. Focus on what is happening and what is realistic. Support CIR and how it can be approved, but do not run after something that can never ever happen.
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